over -- the government shut down 12 times under democratic house speak tip o'neil. only shut down twice while i was speaker. yes the president, the news media and far-left fringe are acting as if it's unprecedented. why is there such hysteria. >> when you have two strong parties, we have three, the tea party, the republicans and the democrats don't know who to deal with. >> okay. well, we're going to talk about that some, about you right now, there are so many things going on so rapidly, there are fast-moving developments on capitol hill. let's get the very latest from cnn chief congressional correspondent dana bash. >> well, newt, there are very fast-moving developments. right now what we are waiting for is the house to begin a series of votes on the plan that they announced earlier today, which is not a bill that the senate democrats say they would pass. not a bill that the president said he would sign, but one that once again trying to chip away

by delaying the man dade for a year and by saying that members of congress and their staff would not get federal subs decides. i learned a short while ago that moderates are staging a revolume, trying to get their republicans to vote against the first procedural measure, because they say they've had enough. about 17 to 20 they would need if they are successful in that first vote, the plan could crumble. >> dana, thank you. that's a pretty big development. we've got some help to talk about it tonight in the crossfire. we have brad woodhouse the president of americans united for change. he is against delaying obama care. also club for growth andrew ross, who wants to appeal obama

care. welcome both of you. it seems that sanity is starting to break out in congress. i believe in majority rule. you guys can go back to fighting obama care, are you for majority rule? >> i thought you were talking about the house bill being a good deal. i think that getting rid of the mobile subsidy has wide support by america. that's a 90/10 issue. >> i gill what's happening now is you might think it's great, you have a bunch of republican moderates trying to get a clean resolution passed. i'm curious, from your point of view, we are supposed to be majority rule in the house of representatives, the hastert rule, which says all the republicans have to get along with it. that's not in the constitution

anywhere. why wouldn't you support a clean resolution now. haven't you made your point? >> i wouldn't support it, because it goes contrary to my principles. >> if it goes -- if boehner decides to bring it up and majority rule passes, that's fine, but there's going to be consequences for the republicans siding with the democrats. >> brad, let me ask you something. i've been fascinated to watch. he can reach out to putin, for assad, but with the iranian president, not the republican speaker, he had time today to meet with the prime minister of vague, but not time to meet with boehner. time to golf saturday, don't you think, even as a supporter of where the president is at, don't you think there's some grounds until our system for sitting down and talking, trying to find a way not necessarily to give us

on core principles, but to find a way to get to a positive agreement? ed president has done that, and speaker boehner walked away in 2011. he offered something called chained cpi. it's a compromise on the big budget issues of the day trying to reach some agreement on spending and deficit reduction. defunding obama care is not going to stop obama care. this is just a false choice. >> but don't you agree there are a number of things that could in fact could be fixed and improved in the way the current bill is working? if you end up with big corporations getting a waiver, but the individual doesn't, it looks to me like that's the

opposite of what democrats used to stand for. everyone knows the individual man dade is the glue that holds everything together. getting rid of the individual mandate is just another substitute. >> senator joe martialing said it was reasonable and sensible to get rid of the individual mandate. >> look, i can find more republicans that think that the right ring you've got one, right there, one. >> you cherry pick the parts of obama care that you like, but don't want the individual

mandate. have you now become the pro-moocher? >> no. everybody agrees on the angle. >> how will you pay for it, though? everybody agrees on the end result. republicans say we can aswain them by handing out tax kretz. >> all those good ideas -- >> but without -- >> even obama was -- >> let me ask -- >> why is it that they couldn't design an insurance policy people would voluntary want to guy? i mean, i think part of the reason i changed my position was

i began to realize this wasn't going to be some bureaucrat forcing people against their will to do something they didn't want to do, and basically it's structured that way. they make it more and more expensive if you don't sign up. so it's a coercive -- >> and when you force them to buy something and you decide what it looks like and how much mandates are on top of it, it gets nasty really fast. >> first of all, what we've set owl, these are called exchanging, they're not exchanges, but marketplaces. 50 new marketplaces plus one in d.c. where starting tomorrow it's no longer mythology and people guessing and scaring each other. tomorrowing can go to healthcare.gov, actually look at the website and guess what? that's competition, transparency and choice in these marketplaces. >> here's another thing.

if you don't mandate that people buy insurance, than you're mandating that we pay for people who don't have insurance and show up at the emergency room. you know, famous mitt romney said, you can't have freeloaders, you can't have people going to the emergency room to get care who otherwise could afford insurance. >> but even under obama care, there's millions of people who are not going to be under insurance. i mean every estimate has shown literally -- >> look, that's not the part of the law i like. that was part of the problem -- >> even with the mandate -- but let me ask you something. we went through an interesting time in '95 and '96, we closed the government for five days in a fight. president clinton came back, got a temporary deal, and then came back and closed for 16 days. dural that process we talked almost every day. we negotiated. we looked for what is it that we can get together on? >> but you were negotiating on

funding levels ostensibly, right? >> also welfare reform and some policies, but what i'm fascinated by is that president obama and harry reid have adopted a policy of scorched earth. reid said flatly according to a story that we wouldn't even come to a meeting if it involved boehner. >> first of all, negotiating with a gun to your head is no way to negotiate. i mean, roll back your signature domestic achievement or we'll shut the government down is not a negotiation strategy that is appropriate. furthermore, the fact is that what we need to do is pass a clean cr then if they want to negotiate, democrats would be happy to be part of that. people can get food stamps, they would be happy to negotiate over that. see, republicans can't take yes for an answer. they right now have got

sequester level funding in the cr. that's what they wanted. that's not what democrats want. they should declare victory and move on. >> can i put on my liberal hat and answer newt's question? >> i'm dying to see this. >> tell me if i'm right or wrong. obama knows that obama care is in a troubling spot. we've seen the headlines, seen the premium increases, seen the states that insurers pull out of various states. he knows that something is wrong, but he cannot accept any demands by republicans because once you chink the armor of obama care a bit, then it gets dangerous. that's why he's opposed to any changes, even good changes. >> first of all, i think the president has made several changes and you beat him up for that as well. i think the language is getting in the way and get out of hand. we have terms that we'll talk about when we get back.

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welcome back to "crossfire." we're a little over five hours from a government shutdown, and there's still no clear way forward. what's causing all the confusion, i think, is that the rhetoric has gotten way out of control. i want everybody to listen to what a republican congressperson told wolf blitzer the other night here on cnn. >> this is worse than the

pro-slavery legislation? >> i can't think of anything right now that could be more damaging for our economy than passing and putting into effect and implementing -- >> i understand you think it's dangerous now, but you said it's the most dang rusz piece of legislation in the history of the united states? >> yes, i think so. i believe that, yes. >> i'm asking do you think it's worse than pro-slavery? >> i haven't drawn any specific comparisons and certainly air kayic laws in effect i can't really comment to, but the point is that obama care is hurting americans. >> now, listen, i know that this guy did not mean to come across as offensive as he did, but i've got to tell you, when you start, as he did, brushing many by comparing it to slavery and it's worse than anything ever? we've had some really bad stuff happen in this country, to say that obama care is worse than that? i think when you get to the

point where you have leaders of a major political party who are taking a bill and putting it at that level, i think things have gone way off the rails. you don't agree that obama care is worse than slavery, do you? >> of course not, but the emotions are very high right now. i'm not excusing what he said, but it makes sense that people make statements that they don't believe out of just emotional fury and because of what's going on. >> i mean, i just have to say, i feel like, you know, you have a major political party that has some responsibility here. there's been a lot of fear that's been whipped up about this bill. frankly it is weird to me, because a lot of stuff, these are republican ideas, but don't you think that on your side when people do get out of line like this, listen, that's not appropriate? i didn't hear anybody say that's inappropriate. >> that's the first time i'm seeing it independents and the president called attention to another state legislator who literally said it was the same

as the fugitive slave act. that's wrong, don't you agree with me? >> first of all, unless you have experienced or looked at it or studied it, you can't imagine how bad slavery was for several hundred years, how balance legal segregation was for over 100 years. anything which is compared to that is inappropriate, but other than the let's -- i think your point about harsh language is right. we live in a period where we've had bombing in boston, the killings in nairobi, and one of the obama's closest advisers said recently. just look at this. >> we are for cutting spending reforming or -- what we are not for is negotiating with people who have a bomb strapped to their chest. >> at a time when people with bombs strapped to their chest is a real thing, dan pfeiffer said if i was still speaker, i would have told the white house if he keys his job, don't expect to

negotiate with us, because we're not talking to anybody in the white house. that is so offensive to me to have somebody in the white house compare their american political opponents with suicide bombers? there's something almost sick about it. don't think that's way over the top? >> first of all, i would be the last person to criticize people for rhetoric. you can't google some things i've said. i'm not sure i'm the best judge. i would say congressman nine i see today, used that same terminology in describing what the right wing and the republican caucus is doing. he said they're helpings with suicide vests attached to them. so he actually agreed with dan pfeiffer. but the rhetoric does high the substantive argument. for example, i think the gentleman's clip that you played, saying that obama care is the worst thing that could happen, and you hear this all the time, it's a job killer.

if you want to argue it on the facts and get rid of all of this rhetoric, obama care proponents will win every single time on the facts. on the facts. that's not even close -- >> well -- i imagine -- >> you can go down the list of all the wrong things going on with obama care -- >> top talking point on the right is obama care is a job killer. when it passed what is the unemployment rate. >> it hasn't complemented yet. >> see, now you're backtracking. you said it's a job killer, the stock market has gone up. i don't think it's a credible argument, but i can't make the opposite argument credible. >> how about a specific? obama care has substantial increased the number of people getting paid for less than 30 hours a week? >> be, mark zandy did a study on

that, went through all of the labor department data on this, could not find any credible evident in the aggregate. you have some companies, especially many ceos supported mitt romney, and many probably which we're going to reduce these hours, but in the aggregate, there's no evidence that companies are doing that. >> i love that how they always like to point out how mark sandy is a republican economist. >> how's this a surprise? this guy is a pro democrat, pro stimulus economist. >> he said there's no evidence to this talking point. >> he is not exactly a favorite of conservatives. we're making a lot of news here. >> i actually think that this

heated rhetoric, i think it matters a lot. and i think it's hurting the american people. i want to show you this. we did this poll. look at this, we asked the american people what they thought about their lawmakers. 69% said the republicans were acting like spoiled children. i think the rhetoric is a big part of that. what do you think that people on your side of the aisle could do to tamp this down and get it back to something a little more constructive? i'll start with you. do you think the democrats have been perfect? we have no responsibility for these kinds of outcomes when the american people are disgusted? >> no. this is a bigger discussion about how communication has

broken down. you're talking about june lateral disarmament. i think it hides the fallacy of a lot of their substantive arguments. but i think whether it's this, whether it's the debt ceiling, whether it's dealing with the sequester, lowing the temperature in washington, would be welcome to everyone. >> i kind of agree with you. >> right here. >> acting like adults is not the end result. it's nice to have. but in the end, it's all about policy. it's a difference in policy. you guys want more government, we want less government. that's going to get nasty. >> let me mention from my perspective, which is limited, the biggest difference i sense between the obama/boehner relationship and the clinton/gingrich relationship is just simply frequency of

conversation. bill clinton and i would talk if not every day, because we didn't always talk on sundays. we would talk five days a week before the shut down, after the shut downs. we met face-to-face for 35 days in the white house trying to hammer things out. when you get to foe somebody, even when you're fighting hard, you kind of understand where the other person's coming from, and there's not some demonized figure. and the degree to which the top people don't talk to even other, whether it's reid and mcconne , mcconnell, -- >> i think when you ran the house and clinton was president, people spent more time in d.c. the skedure that paper has for the house. >> yeah, but the president can pick up the phone and call john

boehner. the only conversation they've had was recent. his opening line i'm told by boehner's staff was i will not negotiate. that was the opening line. >> it's structural too. it's not just the president and boehner. it's all the way down. they talk about how they never hear anything from the white house or the other side of the chamber. >> there is a memo that says do not talk to republicans ever. >> that's not fair. you have republicans who would be afraid to be seen in a picture with president obama, because they would be beat up by organizations like yours. from your side of it, we've created a situation where literally the president of the united states has done things that you should be cheerleading for. you keep saying he wants more government. you know who wants more government? i want more government. >> this is a great conversation. we're going to be doing more of it. let me just say thank to you

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tonight on crossfire we've been debating the government shut down fight. now let's call a cease-fire. is there anything we can agree on? actually, i think we can both agree that if members and the president spent more time together, more time talking, even if they didn't always

agree, they would lower the temperature and would make more sense, and the american people would feel more secure. >> i think that's right. even on this show. the different co-hosts, because we spend time with each other, we don't agree, but we understand each other and it becomes more meaningful. it's a terrible thing for our kids to be watching grown people who do not do what we tell them to do, which is to sit down, talk things out and have a constructive engagement. >> when you go to the polling numbers we saw tonight, these are the leaders of the most complex country in the world. clearly something has to change here. >> it starts with people sitting down and talking. you may have other ideas about what we can do, if you do, go to our facebook or twitter. right now 63%